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	<title>Comments on: The All-tax</title>
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	<link>http://occamsrazr.com/2008/11/21/the-all-tax/</link>
	<description>communication. community. cognition.</description>
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		<title>By: Marina Martin</title>
		<link>http://occamsrazr.com/2008/11/21/the-all-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-2138</link>
		<dc:creator>Marina Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 13:49:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://occamsrazr.com/?p=962#comment-2138</guid>
		<description>This post has been keeping me up at night. (Well, since I&#039;m up all night anyway, maybe I should say it&#039;s been keeping me up during the day!)

I hear so many people talk *excitedly* about getting tax refunds. They look FORWARD to tax day, because their perception is they GET money -- somehow totally missing that it&#039;s their money that they loaned to the government at 0% interest.

If we stop withholding, then everyone would have to pay, and no one would get a refund, so no one would be so damn happy about April 15th.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This post has been keeping me up at night. (Well, since I&#8217;m up all night anyway, maybe I should say it&#8217;s been keeping me up during the day!)</p>
<p>I hear so many people talk *excitedly* about getting tax refunds. They look FORWARD to tax day, because their perception is they GET money &#8212; somehow totally missing that it&#8217;s their money that they loaned to the government at 0% interest.</p>
<p>If we stop withholding, then everyone would have to pay, and no one would get a refund, so no one would be so damn happy about April 15th.</p>
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		<title>By: Marina Martin</title>
		<link>http://occamsrazr.com/2008/11/21/the-all-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-2108</link>
		<dc:creator>Marina Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Nov 2008 22:46:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://occamsrazr.com/?p=962#comment-2108</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been thinking about this post a lot. What if we stopped all government withholding and everyone to had to responsibly set aside the correct amount and send a check in on April 15th? (Even the poorest people have 7.5% Social Security/Medicaid paid by their employer that they likely never consider.)

I bet a ton of people would find themselves at risk of bouncing a check to the IRS, and maybe that would stir up some animosity. (Although, I can totally see some people arguing that it&#039;s not fair the government left it up to them to save money.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been thinking about this post a lot. What if we stopped all government withholding and everyone to had to responsibly set aside the correct amount and send a check in on April 15th? (Even the poorest people have 7.5% Social Security/Medicaid paid by their employer that they likely never consider.)</p>
<p>I bet a ton of people would find themselves at risk of bouncing a check to the IRS, and maybe that would stir up some animosity. (Although, I can totally see some people arguing that it&#8217;s not fair the government left it up to them to save money.)</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Keliher</title>
		<link>http://occamsrazr.com/2008/11/21/the-all-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-2088</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Keliher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 00:02:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://occamsrazr.com/?p=962#comment-2088</guid>
		<description>That makes sense -- that it&#039;s more a matter of communicating (reminding of) the appropriate mindset. But if the point is to give people a sense of ownership and responsibility, rather than entitlement, isn&#039;t this more like lying to them than it is shaping their perception?

After all, this only creates the illusion of &quot;skin in the game.&quot; They&#039;re given money -- other people&#039;s money -- and agree to give most or all of it back. That&#039;s not ownership. That&#039;s a game.

Receiving and then simply handing back someone else&#039;s money is not &quot;paying taxes,&quot; nor do I belive it would create that sense of ownership. What would? Perhaps coupling this All Tax idea with some potential consequences or rewards, some &quot;threat&quot; of expense. I&#039;m not sure exactly how that would work out, but that makes it a lot more than a game.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That makes sense &#8212; that it&#8217;s more a matter of communicating (reminding of) the appropriate mindset. But if the point is to give people a sense of ownership and responsibility, rather than entitlement, isn&#8217;t this more like lying to them than it is shaping their perception?</p>
<p>After all, this only creates the illusion of &#8220;skin in the game.&#8221; They&#8217;re given money &#8212; other people&#8217;s money &#8212; and agree to give most or all of it back. That&#8217;s not ownership. That&#8217;s a game.</p>
<p>Receiving and then simply handing back someone else&#8217;s money is not &#8220;paying taxes,&#8221; nor do I belive it would create that sense of ownership. What would? Perhaps coupling this All Tax idea with some potential consequences or rewards, some &#8220;threat&#8221; of expense. I&#8217;m not sure exactly how that would work out, but that makes it a lot more than a game.</p>
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		<title>By: Ike</title>
		<link>http://occamsrazr.com/2008/11/21/the-all-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-2087</link>
		<dc:creator>Ike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 23:20:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://occamsrazr.com/?p=962#comment-2087</guid>
		<description>@marina and @mike - great question.

This isn&#039;t a matter of raising revenues.  It&#039;s a matter of re-establishing a mindset.

Just knowing that you are now in a tax bracket is a reminder that it&#039;s YOUR money to begin with, money the government subsequently takes away.

It would be easier to compute the net effect of the exchange in advance and apply that.  Instead, the money is given to the individual, thereby assuring that everyone is in a 10% tax bracket.

The premise is that with more people feeling like they are paying a tax (which they are), you&#039;d have a little more scrutiny on the spending side, and less groundswell to &quot;soak&quot; taxpayers.

If everyone pays taxes, then everyone &quot;owns&quot; Leviathan instead of being &quot;owned&quot; by it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@marina and @mike &#8211; great question.</p>
<p>This isn&#8217;t a matter of raising revenues.  It&#8217;s a matter of re-establishing a mindset.</p>
<p>Just knowing that you are now in a tax bracket is a reminder that it&#8217;s YOUR money to begin with, money the government subsequently takes away.</p>
<p>It would be easier to compute the net effect of the exchange in advance and apply that.  Instead, the money is given to the individual, thereby assuring that everyone is in a 10% tax bracket.</p>
<p>The premise is that with more people feeling like they are paying a tax (which they are), you&#8217;d have a little more scrutiny on the spending side, and less groundswell to &#8220;soak&#8221; taxpayers.</p>
<p>If everyone pays taxes, then everyone &#8220;owns&#8221; Leviathan instead of being &#8220;owned&#8221; by it.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Keliher</title>
		<link>http://occamsrazr.com/2008/11/21/the-all-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-2085</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Keliher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 21:26:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://occamsrazr.com/?p=962#comment-2085</guid>
		<description>I like the idea (a lot), but Marina&#039;s question is key: How does this give them a sense of ownership if it&#039;s a &quot;break-even at worst&quot; scenario?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the idea (a lot), but Marina&#8217;s question is key: How does this give them a sense of ownership if it&#8217;s a &#8220;break-even at worst&#8221; scenario?</p>
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		<title>By: Marina Martin</title>
		<link>http://occamsrazr.com/2008/11/21/the-all-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-2083</link>
		<dc:creator>Marina Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 02:20:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://occamsrazr.com/?p=962#comment-2083</guid>
		<description>Maybe I&#039;m missing something, but how does it give them a sense of ownership if they receive a check that pays all the taxes they&#039;d owe and leaves them with a bit left over? Seems like that would *increase* their sense of entitlement, because instead of not owing tax in the first place, now they receive a bill and actively see someone else pay it each and every time. Then they&#039;ll want their electric bill paid, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe I&#8217;m missing something, but how does it give them a sense of ownership if they receive a check that pays all the taxes they&#8217;d owe and leaves them with a bit left over? Seems like that would *increase* their sense of entitlement, because instead of not owing tax in the first place, now they receive a bill and actively see someone else pay it each and every time. Then they&#8217;ll want their electric bill paid, too.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Dix</title>
		<link>http://occamsrazr.com/2008/11/21/the-all-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-2082</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Dix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 01:39:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://occamsrazr.com/?p=962#comment-2082</guid>
		<description>I like your idea.   I’ve seen studies or commentary over the last few years—probably in the Wall Street Journal, maybe elsewhere—that lament this, offer similar ideas.  The question is, how do we move this from Quixotic quest to something people take seriously?  Especially in this environment?  I have no idea!   I see inflation in the future, as the gov’t prints money as the only possible way out.  For a short while. 

Ideas?

There’s a review out there of William Greider&#039;s book on David Stockman (the Reagan apostate) that begins with these two quotes that I still like to pull out from time to time:

The most important function of the federal government is mailing checks to citizens--Social Security checks to the elderly, pension checks to retired soldiers and civil servants, reimbursement checks for hospitals and doctors who provide medical care for the aged and the poor, welfare checks for the dependent, veterans checks to pensioners. 
           -William Greider, The Education of David Stockman 

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury. From that time on the  majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the results that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. 
            -Sir Alex Fraser Tytler (1742-1813)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like your idea.   I’ve seen studies or commentary over the last few years—probably in the Wall Street Journal, maybe elsewhere—that lament this, offer similar ideas.  The question is, how do we move this from Quixotic quest to something people take seriously?  Especially in this environment?  I have no idea!   I see inflation in the future, as the gov’t prints money as the only possible way out.  For a short while. </p>
<p>Ideas?</p>
<p>There’s a review out there of William Greider&#8217;s book on David Stockman (the Reagan apostate) that begins with these two quotes that I still like to pull out from time to time:</p>
<p>The most important function of the federal government is mailing checks to citizens&#8211;Social Security checks to the elderly, pension checks to retired soldiers and civil servants, reimbursement checks for hospitals and doctors who provide medical care for the aged and the poor, welfare checks for the dependent, veterans checks to pensioners.<br />
           -William Greider, The Education of David Stockman </p>
<p>A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury. From that time on the  majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the results that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.<br />
            -Sir Alex Fraser Tytler (1742-1813)</p>
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		<title>By: Christina</title>
		<link>http://occamsrazr.com/2008/11/21/the-all-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-2078</link>
		<dc:creator>Christina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Nov 2008 03:48:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://occamsrazr.com/?p=962#comment-2078</guid>
		<description>I think God&#039;s way is fair -- in the Bible He requires a 10% tithe from all people.  It&#039;s equal, it&#039;s fair.  If you make $50,000/year, you pay 10% of that.  And if you make $1 million, you pay 10% of that.  Seems to me like if you&#039;re going to have an income tax, this is fair.  Of course, I still agree with Ron Paul, that it&#039;s our money to begin with, &amp; since we pay property taxes, sales tax, gas tax, etc., then income tax should be abolished.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think God&#8217;s way is fair &#8212; in the Bible He requires a 10% tithe from all people.  It&#8217;s equal, it&#8217;s fair.  If you make $50,000/year, you pay 10% of that.  And if you make $1 million, you pay 10% of that.  Seems to me like if you&#8217;re going to have an income tax, this is fair.  Of course, I still agree with Ron Paul, that it&#8217;s our money to begin with, &amp; since we pay property taxes, sales tax, gas tax, etc., then income tax should be abolished.</p>
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		<title>By: Ike</title>
		<link>http://occamsrazr.com/2008/11/21/the-all-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-2077</link>
		<dc:creator>Ike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 04:12:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://occamsrazr.com/?p=962#comment-2077</guid>
		<description>In the grand scheme of things, that $5K per low-income family is a bargain-basement price to pay for the sense of ownership those voters will develop.

How do you get them not to riot?  Easy.  They are paying taxes out of a larger sum of money they never would have seen anyway.  In every single case, the math works out to their net benefit.  What&#039;s to complain?  A little bit of hassle? Having to actually calculate and file?

Maybe this is an impetus for simplifying the code anyway...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the grand scheme of things, that $5K per low-income family is a bargain-basement price to pay for the sense of ownership those voters will develop.</p>
<p>How do you get them not to riot?  Easy.  They are paying taxes out of a larger sum of money they never would have seen anyway.  In every single case, the math works out to their net benefit.  What&#8217;s to complain?  A little bit of hassle? Having to actually calculate and file?</p>
<p>Maybe this is an impetus for simplifying the code anyway&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Annie</title>
		<link>http://occamsrazr.com/2008/11/21/the-all-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-2076</link>
		<dc:creator>Annie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 03:28:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://occamsrazr.com/?p=962#comment-2076</guid>
		<description>Two questions:

1. Where does the $5K that goes to all these families come from?

2. Ditto Foxfier (kind of) - how do you get this group that has never paid taxes to not riot?  

I think it&#039;s a good idea.  No, you&#039;re not evil. If my grad school stipend gets taxes taken out (and it does), then I can&#039;t understand how other people can get away with not paying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two questions:</p>
<p>1. Where does the $5K that goes to all these families come from?</p>
<p>2. Ditto Foxfier (kind of) &#8211; how do you get this group that has never paid taxes to not riot?  </p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s a good idea.  No, you&#8217;re not evil. If my grad school stipend gets taxes taken out (and it does), then I can&#8217;t understand how other people can get away with not paying.</p>
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